Hello,
Greetings. I have been wondering how one obtained promotion through the ranks in our regiment. I only did National Service in the Royals and served in Egypt and Germany. I don't recall any fellow National Service man being promoted from Trooper to Lance Corporal, I was in HQ Squadron, perhaps some lads were promoted in other squadrons.
If one one wanted to make a career in the military and quite naturally wanted to experience advancement, what did one have to do? Were there courses that could be taken that made one eligible for promotion? Or, did it depend on an Officer or a senior NC0 noting one's character and skills and then their putting forward your name for promotion? If so, what characteristics would they have been looking for in an individual?
Don't quite know why this topic crossed my mind, but I thought that it would be interesting to hear your views.
Regards to all.
Colin.
I have a slant on this question. As you say national service was thrust upon the youth of Britain. Most guys just wanted to get it over and done with and then get on with their lives. The powers that be used it as a way to keep our armed forces at a high level with the advent of the cold war. Therefore places for NCOs were available but promotion for a national service soldier meant that if they did not stay then the vacancy would have to be filled again. This was not good for continuity.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that when I arrived in Hobart barracks as a young trooper fresh from bovington there were soldiers in the regiment who had stayed on after their national service and were NCOs. Its a good talking point. But who knows what makes a good NCO. I, as have all of us, have served with good ones and bad ones.
I remember that before you could become an NCO you had to be a tradesman/crewman before you were usually recommended for a CADRE, which was a selection course to see if you made the grade. I can remember the RSM taking part in the process, screaming and shouting and making a general nuisance of himself. This usually lasted for about a week. Generally you were tested on the power of command and your ability to undertake and perform drill routines etc as well as your general turnout on a day to day basis. Your general conduct was also a pert of the process.
ReplyDeleteIn my day (63-93) it took on average 3 years between ranks. Today in the Army it now takes on average 5 years between ranks. This is because a lot of people now serve until they are 55 years of age, not 40/42 years of age.
ReplyDeleteI was a National Serviceman and do not know why I got promoted after twelve months maybe it was something to do with Eddie Rooke pushing it forward, I have said in the past if it was as it is today you were allowed to go back home on leave and not have to stay until the tour was finished I would probably have signed on, but now we will never know. There is one thing that i still treasure and that is the many great friends I made while I was in the Regiment, that is something that cannot be taken away and still be able to meet up with them again after all these years.
ReplyDeleteI was a NS soldier who was promoted to L/Cpl after 12 mths service. I was a B11 op/ B111 dvr in SHQ Troop A Sqn I was a W/S 19 (HP)&W/S B52 operator on the forward/rear link nets two of my friends were NS NCOs .My mentor was D.Leese SQN Sigs Sgt.
ReplyDeleteGraham
Myself and Bruce Maddock were put forward for promotion but it was turned down because we were NS but because the squadron was moving to Singapore were put incharge of the officers mess.So I became a barman unill it was time for me to leave I did put on a fair bit of weight.
ReplyDeleteRegards Ian Wilson
In our lot there were exceptions but basicly after certain qualifications you went on a roll,and if someone left or got promoted you moved up the roll,the upside was it was a substansive rank and couldn't be taken away on a whim,unlike local acting,unpaid,unwanted sort of thing,the exceptions were X trades which carried a rank on completion of training,downside was you couldn't buy yourself out if you were X tradesman.
ReplyDeleteUndetected crime was the secret!!!!!!
ReplyDelete-----
Don
I served in Royals from Feb 57 to August 59 as a 3 year reg.I joined reg as a AFV B3 driver and was put on a B2 drivers course then a wireless course which made me a B1 tradesman with a brass afv badge worn on the right arm on the forearm.I got my first stripe july 57 alongside of 2 N/S lads.I went to Bovington on a D&M Instructors course in feb 58 and got my 2nd stripe April 58 with Tom Coan a N/S LAD who by this time was a small arms instructor. In the mess at the time were quite a few N/S L/cpls This was at wesendorf and Herford. I am still in touch with Tom Coan and am going out to spain May 17 for 2 weeks to stay with him having been in regular contact with him ever since our army days.
ReplyDeleteGraham remember them days well and i still play on the Radio from time to time.where do you live these days would be nice to meet up again after all these years
ReplyDeleteREGARDS DEREK LEESE
ReplyDeleteDerek I live in N.Somerset 7 miles south of Bristol and it would be nice to meet up again.
Graham
The reasons why anyone gets promoted are many and legion. A lot depended on the circumstances at the time, on personalities and on and on. I don't remember any prejudice against N/S men being promoted , at least to L/C and in fact I successfully recommended a few . My early promotion was before I joined the Regt. When in training at Catterick I expressed a wish to become a gunnery instructor , during my gunnery course and this was conveyed to the Wing O/C so that I was sent to Lulworth in the rank of Local/acting/unpaid/unwanted Lance/Corporal. When I met the others on the course someone told us that NCO's were liable for various duties but Troopers weren't . I immediately stripped of my stripe and introduced myself as a Trooper and you know what, no one took the slightest bit of notice. What a mistake that was though. I got away with performing duties but got five days Jankers for having a shirt pocket button undone when going to lunch one day. Worse was to come. At the end of the course I,with three of others were posted to the RAC School at Belsen/Bergen where instructors were meant to be Full Cpl's ,so the other three got their second stripe and I got just one and had to wait a couple of months or so for my second.
ReplyDeleteIn those days anyone with a bit of education could get a good rank by joing the Education Corps and by passing whatever they had to pass were given the immediate rank of Acting Sergeant.Not bad for a N/S man.
Paddy
Architects did well,a friend of mine got deferment while he was qualified ,when he got called up he was promoted staff sergeant in the Royal Engineers after basic training.Not only that but he was at Hounslow Barracks,three miles from home.Cypher clerks in the Signals got corporals stripes as soon as they qualified.I got my stripe after three months of being attached to the Royals.
ReplyDeleteBob
I was with the Royals 63-68 and got both my L/Cp & Cpl during that time. Being a tradesman in the REME who were attached to practically every Regt/ Corp and therefore not locally assessed it depended on time served. After 6 years and attaining the right qualifications you were a L/Cpl and after 6 years a Cpl. Then when your time was up after 9 years you were tempted to sign on with promotion to Sgt. There were fast track promotions which came again with signing long term if that took your fancy. Sometimes it was being in the right place at the right time, nevertheless my experiences were and always will be a great part of my life. Roger Beard, REME attched A Sqn
ReplyDeleteSorry guys, After 4 years you were a L/Cpl, not 6 as previously stated.
ReplyDeleteWas it not also a case, in the REME, whereby an NCO who passed an eighteen month Artificers Course was given the rank of Staff/Sgt?.
ReplyDeletePaddy
I was N.S. and was promoted to L/Cpl 25.7.1949, along with two of my mates. This is recorded for posterity in "The Eagle" for Dec.1949. I was with the Royals at Wolfenbuttel Jan.49 - May 50. the same issue of the Mag.details many similar promotions from Tpr. to L/Cpl but I don't know who were N.S. and who were Regulars.. The relatively large No. could have been through time expired regulars after WW2. also until later in 1949 N.S. was for 18 months. One advantage was use of the Corporals' Mess, and one disadvantage for me was Guard Mounting on Main Gate. fortunately I only had one disaster. If anyone is interested, I submitted a Photo of self and four of my "B" Squadron fellow Lance Jacks (all N.S.) on 29.11.09 to our "Photos" Section, page 7.
ReplyDeleteHarold.
Yes Paddy, you were right, the "Tiffy Course" was what I referred to as the fast track and came with signing on. Having trained you to the required standard you became a Staff /Sgt and they wanted to reap the benefit of your knowledge for several years to come. Which is understandable, I was an Apprentice for 3 years at Chepstow and if I wanted to leave before my 9 year term was up, I had to "buy myself out"
ReplyDeleteKind Regards
Roger
At the end of the day there can only be so many NCOs to a regiment (quota). In the case of the Band(HQ) this was 6 L/Cpl, 3 Cpl, 1 Sgt, 1 SSgt 1 Trumpet Major and 1 Bandmaster (WOII) this worked out at 36% NCOs and 64% ORs. So it was a question of waiting for dead mans shoes, so to speak. One particular problem worth mentioning here is the fact that during amalgamation most NCOs had to find other bands to go to within rac, this in turn caused further problems by blocking their line of promotion too! With more cutbacks announced today, one wonders when it’s all going to end?
ReplyDeleteI seem to recall a guy by the name of Partridge who was so good as an NS man they made him full Corporal,and had he signed on he would have been made Sgt!Bags of initiative with those NS boys,never had to say "brew up" - it was done every time one stopped for a few minutes,I recall how proud they were of their de-mob calenders,and how quite they became the nearer it came to that de-mob date!!!
ReplyDelete---------
Don
Thanks for all the replies to my initial query with regard to promotion, I have enjoyed reading them.
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, I assume that one's pay increased with each promotion. In 1952 pay, for a Trooper, was 50p a week and by the end of my two years it had risen to £3. Amazing what one could do with 50p in those days, I think most of mine was spent in the NAAFI on food.
Colin
Don ,the subject of Partridge came up some time ago and both Bob ,who remembered him,and I decided that it was best left alone so as not to cause any embarrasement.In fact he did make Sgt.
ReplyDeletePaddy
Never mind the pay. I think the MoD should tell the Banks to stuff their Bonuses and go back to having weekly pay parades, albeit starting in reverse alphabetical order more often - I hated being last!
ReplyDelete.....and going home on leave from Wesendorf once I actually got paid in one of those 5 pound notes the size of a sheet of A4! Not many people will remember those days I'll bet.
Oh yes - I remember well those large white and black 5 pound notes.My dear old Dad once came into possesion of one,he was as proud as punch till Mum told him she had to change it to feed us seven kids!!!!!!Thanks for the info on Partridge Paddy,he was in my draft,Dad was pretty well off,and I often got a cream horn from Percy at NAAFI break when my vast wage packet was spent!!!!
ReplyDelete-------
Don
We certainly get promoted for the extra money! I think I got 6d.per day on top of the original 4/- plus another 6d. for passing class 2 W/Op.trade test. As we weren't trusted to spend all this wealth wisely, we got 10/- one week and £1 the next. Going back off leave we found a £1 note on the platform at what was then London Road Station, Manchester. It did something to relieve post-leave depression!
ReplyDeleteHarold.
That Five pound note created all sorts of problems . I got them in my leave pay and had a job to spend them in England but trying to change them into Irish Punts was a nightmare.
ReplyDeletePaddy
It's almost history repeating itself! Having just passed my 81st. birthday, last month, I realise that a grateful Govt increased my state pension at 80, by the magnificent sum of 25p.per week. After a year of their generosity I am just over £13.00 better off (less tax of course). Cheers, fellers!
ReplyDeleteHarold.
Don't forget the free TV licence Harold & Sorry Don, that doesn't apply to you ...or the aussie deserters!
ReplyDeletedon`t spend it all at once Harold ,because after tax you will only have about £10 40p or down this way about 2 and a bit pints.
ReplyDeletejohn(jp)
Yes, the TV licence is a plus! It's grim up north, but even after tax it should run to about 4 pints. Even so, there are a lot of Pubs closing down round here.
ReplyDeleteHarold.
What a life eh - free TV,free busses,free this,free that - no wonder the old country is going bust,and my pension shrinks every year.That poor Mr Cameron is having a hell of a job sharing out the countries riches in a fair way?And when the "pubs" start to close down things must be getting grim!
ReplyDelete-------
Don
My state pension extra has been absorbed by council tax and water rate increases.
ReplyDeleteBob